THE IDEA OF THE PASTOR

What is the biblical gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached?

To be as succinct as possible, the gospel the apostles preached can be summed up by the first line in the first gospel: “The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God” (1:1a), and Jesus’s first sermon in the gospel of Matthew: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near” (4:17).

The gospel is not primarily good advice or a self-help program (reduced to “how to get to heaven when you die”), but rather it is a declaration (Jesus is Lord, and his Kingdom is advancing) followed by an invitation (repent - change the way you see everything because of it).

The task of preachers today, and by extension all christians, is to expound upon those two statements by continuing to tell the story so it interprets the world around us and reconciles it to the Father.

How do you define being a Christian?

I like the theory that followers of Jesus were first called “christians” in the city of Antioch as something of an insult. “Look at these people, running around like they’re little messiahs!”, and the first believers chose to wear the insult as a badge of honor. “Little Christs” is a wonderful translation, because it speaks of how we’re being shaped to look more like Jesus.

So my answer is that being is a Christian is committing to look more Jesus-shaped over the course of a lifetime. Rather than merely saying “I’m a christian” as if it was a one-and-done legal definition, we should approach it as, “I am also becoming a christian”, to honor the ongoing process of transformation.

A lot of churches think that the 5 fold ministry gifts are for each person in the church, how would you defend that it is just for leadership?

I wouldn’t defend that the five-fold ministry is just for leadership, because I don’t believe that. I believe the roles are like the gifts: All are available to us all the time, but some are specially gifted to some of us for our main calling. So, to some degree, we’re all called to be apostolic, prophetic, pastoral, teacherly, and evangelistic. And some of us are specifically endowed with those gifts in a way that they set us up for a vocational ministry.

There isn’t biblical evidence that each expression of the larger church body should have one person employed in each of those roles, but that those gifts should be present in the body as a whole. From what we can best tell, the early church appointed pastors and elders to oversee churches locally, while apostles and evangelists travelled about preaching the good news and establishing new communities around the known world.

What is the etymology of ordained and is it a biblical term or taken from a biblical concept?

“Ordination” comes from the latin ordinatio, which means to “put in order” and to “appoint”. The earliest uses are in Exodus 28 and 29, when God instructs Moses to ordain his brother Aaron and his family to be the priests for Israel. We see in the early church certain people were appointed by the laying on of hands to order the daily workings of the community, whether in a specific ministry (like Stephen in Acts 6:6) or in a pastoral position (like Timothy in Ephesus, 2 Tim. 1:6). It is also tied to Jesus’ establishment of Peter, who, “on this rock I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18,19). Much of christian organisation comes from the Jewish traditions, except the qualifications for ordination shift from genetics to giftedness. The Great Tradition of the Church holds the laying on of hands as an apostolic succession, going back to Peter himself, that ordains certain members of the community to fill that priestly or pastoral role.

Why is there such consistency between pastors and the avoidance of that gift? Why do gifted pastors almost always avoid that role?

I think “pastor” is often a difficult and thankless role. Good pastors (vocational or otherwise) are constantly having their hearts broken open for people, but their care is not always welcome or acknowledged. There is also an unreal amount of scrutiny heaped on many pastors by congregations who want them to be the kinds of christians they don’t have the time or discipline to be themselves.

I also think many people gifted and called to be pastors don’t recognize it because the gift has been presented as such a specialized profession that it’s only applicable to people who work at churches. One of the ways we’ve sought to democratize the gift is to cultivate people in our community who are gifted to shepherd through various discipleship initiatives, so it doesn’t fall to one single person.

I thought teaching was integral to being a pastor. What is the difference between the two? Can you expound on your understanding of the role of the pastor compared with the role of the teacher?

I think teaching is often, but not always, integral to being a pastor. I think that’s a norm we’ve perhaps imposed upon vocational pastors because it’s cheaper than hiring for two different roles, but in the same breath I think they go hand-in-hand for many if teaching is seen as a way to move the community in the direction of Jesus. I like to thinking of teaching as an expression of someone’s worldview; a prophetic person can express it through teaching, an evangelistic person will do the same, and so on. But even among denominations, you’ll find pastor and teacher as gifts aren’t always wrapped up in the same person. I know plenty of my contemporaries in other churches that are great pastors and priests (in terms of leading the liturgy) who struggle with the art of the sermon. I also know there are many amazing biblical teachers that don’t have a shepherding bone in their bodies.

Simply put, teaching is revealing the Truth of God, especially through scripture, and pastoring is about guiding and protecting the flock. They are complementary, but not always the same thing or found in the same person. I happen to be gifted and called in both.

Can you further flesh out your understanding of the difference between calling and being ordained, and how that process comes about?

Everyone has a calling. Our common purpose is to reveal and reflect God, and our calling is the more specific way we go about doing that, particularly by understanding how our stories, personalities, and spiritual gifts uniquely contribute to the larger story.

Ordination is essentially a community or church polity laying hands on someone as both a confirmation of their calling to vocational ministry and a challenge to live into that vocation faithfully. Each denomination or church will have its own criteria for who is ready and qualified for ordination.

Ordination is more the vessel into which one’s calling is poured. For example, I was ordained by the Anchor Mission USA which was accepted by City Beautiful Church, but being spiritual director at the Anchor Fellowship or being pastor at City Beautiful Church are just the container for the calling itself. Your calling may very well take on many different shapes in your lifetime, yet in some way it will remain consistent.

“The role of the pastor is to tell the story of God in a way that interprets our lives” - can you juxtapose this with the role of the Christian?

It’s the same thing! That’s the beautiful illusion, and why Peter, the first leader of the Church, also said each of us are called to the priesthood of all believers. We have among us people specially set aside to begin the story-telling, and to teach others how they are best suited to tell it. But the goal is that we all abide there (Eph. 4:11-16).

Does the structure of church in the west help to disassemble, or to build up the celebrity mindset you were discussing?

I think celebrity worship is inevitable in any society crafted apart from God-as-revealed-in-Jesus. There isn’t much of a difference between the reverence of Pharaoh and Caesar in the ancient world as there is with our movie stars and politicians today. One of the genius concepts of Jewish belief in its day was a God that had no discernible shape. Yahweh wasn’t like all the other gods in Mesopotamia who looked like something that could be idolized and set on a pedestal, even though Israelites tried many times. The problem is they often ascribed that worship to powerful people.

I think the structure of many churches in the west is conducive to celebrity worship because we’ve believed the surrounding culture gets to dictate the playing field. When the church looks at society and asks, “how can we be more relevant to what you’re doing?”, then you know we’ve lost our way. So when culture appoints, elevates and crucifies little gods, the church follows suit. Many church leaders play into the hype, believing that the increased platform or more seats in chairs or more books on shelves ultimately brings more glory to God. We often judge our faithfulness in the kingdom by the definitions of success in the Empire.

I do see, however, many forms of church in the west that are not only structured to combat celebrity obsession, but also hold their understanding of leadership in a way that is more true to the servant leadership established by Christ.

See, the answer isn’t always to just develop a new system. Sometimes the system is secondary to the attitude by which we operate within the system. I largely believe in the structure of the Church because I believe God has not lost control of it for 2000 years and is just now deciding to fix it, and I believe it works when we’re christ-like. There’s a quote often credited to Winston Churchill: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others”. I think that’s true of church structure and polity as well. How it’s ordered can play into the worst tendencies of the culture around us, but it’s probably more important that we examine the heart motivations behind the way we order and care for the Church.

THE PRACTICE OF PASTORING

What have you learned to value the most in your journey to today?

To embrace “process”. The bible is one big story unfolding the reality of Who God is, and I’d like to think of each of our lives in the same way. The more acclimated I become to the idea that I’m a work in progress, and so are you, and God’s doing something that will come to completion on down the road, I find I am more patient and forgiving. In fact, once we embrace “process”, all manner of biblical concepts start to take shape in practical ways: faith, grace, justice, forgiveness, and so many more.

What does godly ‘submission’ to your pastor look like/not look like?

I would start with re-examining what biblical “submission” actually is. We often interpret that word in a top-down, militaristic, authoritarian way, where relationships are defined by power over those less worthy. I think true submission is actually rooted in unconditional love, which begins with the inherent worth of all. This is what we see in so many images of the Trinity: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all deferring to one another in a circuit of self-giving love.

It’s important to recognize, before Paul talks about specific types of relationship dynamics in his letter to the Ephesians, he sets an incredibly important filter: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” (Eph. 5:21). In the Kingdom, according to Paul, the authoritarian power-struggle submission doesn’t work anymore! It’s all redefined around the self-giving submissive love of Jesus who “made himself nothing…” (Phil. 2:7).

I believe in that light, godly submission to me as pastor means trusting in our mutual inherent worth, and letting the role I have been appointed to play in your life not be a measure of power and privilege, but a specific way I can help you to become more like Jesus. This requires a level of trust that 1) I have indeed been called, and 2) that I will be faithful to that call. This is where healthy submission to me means also holding me accountable to be for you who I’m called to be, in love. Submission doesn’t mean you put me on a pedestal, or you blindly follow me and agree with everything I say. It does mean you trust me and help me realize day-by-day what we’ve all be called here to be.

Is my pastor my “spiritual father”... even if I hardly know him personally?

This is an intriguing question. The idea of a “spiritual father” isn’t common in every church denomination/expression, and even then it isn’t always approached the same way, so I couldn’t give you a definitive conclusion. I would say, to some degree, I am a spiritual father to our whole community in that part of my role (in addition to leadership and elders) is to guide and protect the community.

In my own life, I have a few people who I would call my spiritual fathers and mothers because of the specific ways they have spoken into my life and guided my spiritual growth. That would be impossible without personal relationship. My spiritual parents (and this may or may not be how you want to approach the question with the Lord) are not part of our church community. They have a neat distance from my life here that gives them special ability to speak into me.

What is the biggest frustration for you in your role as pastor? What is the most discouraging thing to see in our church community, and what is the most encouraging?

The most discouraging thing is when people choose out, either because they’ve gradually wandered away, or there is some irreconcilable difference that culminates in a conscious decision to leave. It’s part of my personality to want everyone to find a seat at the table, to love and be loved, know and be known, and it kills me when that doesn’t happen. Just when I think I’ve accepted the inevitability of people leaving, it happens all over again and my fear of abandonment is triggered. I’ve talked to my parents about this, and even they struggle with it 40 years into the ministry. It hurts. But I suppose, I’d rather have it hurt than numb myself to the pain and blithely accept it.

The most encouraging thing is when people choose in. People who show up, expectant to receive, ready to give. People who understand it is over seasons, not instantaneously, that we encounter God in community and are transformed into christ-likeness. The little moments that are evidence of this to me are in hearing how our people pray or worship, in how normal it’s becoming for people to talk about hearing God’s voice, in the deep relationships built here, or, as Stanley Hauerwas puts it, this is “the place where God is forming a family of strangers”.

How do you feel you connect with the congregation the best? What makes you feel you are pastoring? Or connecting?

I connect at large through worship and celebration. It’s a special moment when we are all caught up in worship together, singing in one voice. It’s also beautiful to witness everyone coming together for a meal, inquiring of one another’s stories, speaking with authority and tenderness into each other. I also feel very connected while preaching or leading us to the Lord’s Table.

On a personal, one-to-one level, I feel faithful to my role and connected when I’m able to establish and enter into a sacred space where conversation feels more than just conversation, coffee is more than just coffee, like God is especially present to us. These moments are really special to me.

What are your goals for increasing pastoral duties this year? What are ways that you can continue to connect and pastor on a deeper level this year?

Because I am always hungry to learn more about being a pastor, I’m reading a lot. I already have a couple books from trusted voices about pastoring on the to-do list, in addition to theology books. I am developing deeper relationships with other pastors and church leaders in town who are full of wisdom in their own journeys. You’ll be meeting some of them soon.

In terms of shepherding, I’m learning to shift a few of my mindsets when I meet with people to be a good pastor. I feel a shift in my preaching too, to tell the story and expect transformation when we encounter God. I’m also looking for ways to make myself more available to the individuals for meeting. The simplest one is getting my email address out there more: ryan@citybeautiful.ch .

What are the gaps in leadership as you, Loi, Bri, and the elders work together? And how are you addressing those gaps?

I’ve been enjoying the modern philosopher Alain de Botton’s thoughts on love recently. He says that we’re often assume “compatibility” is the place we should start a relationship rather than the thing we’re trying to get to, which is why we often punish one another for not understanding or being on the same page. If we understand that compatibility is the journey, however, then love for one another is this process of mutual education over time.

I think that aligns beautifully with the idea of “covenant” we find in the Kingdom, that we are committed to one another on the journey towards understanding and practice. There are plenty of places in our leadership where we don’t always see things exactly the same way, but because the foundation of commitment has been established it gives us permission to press in to one another, rather that uniform agreement being the litmus test for whether we’ll stick around or not. Over time, we have found more and more common ground and common vision, but it often springs out of choosing to see our diversity of perspectives is an asset to our community, not a liability.

Recently we’ve been having some great conversation about the core identity of our community, and how that shapes what we do on a Sunday, in discipleship settings throughout the week, and in how we are present to the city at large. A lot of it is choosing to prioritize certain conversations and decisions over others, so we can be responsible in taking our time. In many ways, there’s no rush to get it all figured out now! Vision is vision because we haven’t seen it come to completion yet, but we know where we’re headed.

For you as a pastor what’s the difference between putting up a wall and putting up a healthy boundary, especially in relationship to your enneagram as a 9?

Oh my goodness. This is a fantastic pastoral question, and one I’m still working on in my own life. I’ll talk about my natural inclinations as a 9:Peacemaker first, then how I’ve applied that to my role as a pastor.

Nines generally aren’t great at boundaries. We are motivated to pursue togetherness with everyone, but we are also threatened by anyone who brings conflict that would compromise peace. We see the world as resolved/unresolved, which you can imagine greatly influences our relationships and how we define them. A lot of times the boundaries I put up are, if I’m honest with myself, actually more about self-preservation than anything else. And so few people would know the guard has gone up because we Nines will still be pleasant on the outside!

The best way I’ve learned how to define the boundary/wall assessment in my own life is whether I have made a decision out of fear and obsessive self-protection, or out of love for self and others. I understand more than ever, that being loving does NOT mean I am open to everyone and everything. In fact, I have tripped along in my pastoral position by defining relationships in that way. Exchanging data points in the name of vulnerability is not the same thing as intimacy.

One of the problems in modern society is that we have collapsed all our relationships into one amorphous blob in the name of intimacy, especially authority roles. We have a low “power differential awareness” in America. Parents, mentors, teachers, counselors, bosses, pastors, these titles get muddied because of the supposed distance they put between people, so the solution is to do away with authority roles altogether. This is unfortunate, because without clear boundaries and definitions, we don’t know what to expect from people in leadership positions. Part of my task is to reclaim the pastoral relationship and make boundaries in it that honor the title. This means offering myself in a way that is loving to the community and individuals, but knowing it will look different than the way I offer myself to my friends or family. So much of that comes through trial and error honestly, but I am endeavoring every day to get better at it.

How might we, as church members, make your role as a lead pastor easier and more joyful?

As I said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I don’t want my job to be easier. I think we often judge our decisions by the criteria of comfort rather than meaning. I want my job to be fruitful, and in that, it will be joyful. You know those nights where you go to bed exhausted but so alive? That’s what I desire.

Let me pastor you. Don’t feel strange for asking of me what you know I’m here for. Share with me your stories, your dreams, your struggles. Let me come alongside you as you journey closer to Jesus. Also, inquire of the Lord as to your role in our community and pursue it with excellence. It’s only by the work of the many that we will increasingly become the church God is calling us to be. I can’t do it on my own.

How do you want us to get to know you better? Ask you out or something? If so what’s your favorite restaurant?

I think quality time is absolutely the best way for us to get to know one another. I am definitely willing to share a meal or a coffee with you, but it can also be a walk in a park or a sit-down in the church library. I constantly change my favorite restaurant because I love good food of any kind, so I’m always down to explore. The best way to ask me out is to email me at ryan@citybeautiful.ch .

Have you ever done an exorcism?

Yes, a few times. I have participated in exorcisms that skew more towards the sensational as you might see in TV shows, but mostly I think “exorcism” really looks a lot like inner healing in the sense that something is chased away quietly and sweetly by the presence of the Spirit of Jesus, many times without anyone realizing it at all. In that sense, I have probably done more exorcisms than I may realize!

What is the typical preparation process for your daily pastoring vocation?

Because it varies from day-to-day, I have to be as consistent with my time as possible, or it will get away from me. I have established prayer routines I use in daily morning prayer (currently from the Northumbria community on Iona in Scotland) and I attend holy eucharist at the Cathedral of Saint Luke every Friday at noon. These rhythms, apart from my direct pastoral tasks, keep me immersed in the story. I also make sure I am regularly studying the word, whether directly or through reading theology books. I used to feel strange considering reading and study as part of my pastoral duties, but I have realized how imperative it is for me to keep seeking the Lord’s face in both my personal life and the life of our community. I pray for us a lot, and I create space to silently be present with Jesus. I’m often spending time with people, both within our church and beyond, with an ear to what the Lord is saying and doing, so I might respond appropriately and gain some direction for our community. I’m slowly getting better at this with practice. Finally, I make sure, as often as possible, to lay aside the job and enjoy my life from time-to-time. This is something I had to learn as a high school teacher, and it’s doubly important now.

As our Pastor, how can we be praying for you?

This is one of those questions I ask often, but have a hard time answering myself. This is not uncommon among pastors.

I would say, primarily, pray that I might be faithful to the calling on my life. My favorite worship song is “Jesus All for Jesus” by Robin Mark, and the words are a mantra to me: “All of my ambitions, hopes, and plans, I surrender them into your hands. For it’s only in your will that I am free”. That’s how I want to live.

Secondly, pray for my struggles, not the least of which is loneliness. I’ve spoken openly about this before, but sometimes the calling is a solitary one. Bound to that would be for an increase in joy and contentment.

FAITH AND CALLING

How do you encourage someone who struggles with their faith where most “Christians “ would say to just have faith?

Properly defining faith and belief is incredibly important. I think of “faith” as “participation”, rather than merely “intellectual affirmation”. Abraham is the father of faith, but he didn’t always know what was going on, and he didn’t always get it right in the moment. But he kept choosing in to God’s covenant. Similarly, it’s an act of faith, not in opposition to faith, for the father of a possessed boy to say to Jesus, “Lord I believe. Help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:24).

My encouragement would be: keep participating. Be open, willing to be surprised. Lean in to those whose faith is strong. Surround yourself with trusted voices who can offer you presence over prescription. It’s a normal part of the process.

Did you or do you ever struggle with your faith? Have you ever been in a situation that made you doubt the existence of God? And how did you deal with it?

Every day. I think there are two struggles at work in all of us that I know well: intellectual doubt and existential doubt. Often I question the existence of God when I seek to actively engage the world around me. My struggles come more in the personal stories of others than the global events that cause some people to question their faith, but I understand those struggles to some degree. I think, more often, I doubt in my actions, which is to say I make decisions as if God does not exist. There are days where I genuinely feel like it would be better if none of this was true, and that the world is meaningless or you make up your own meaning or what-have-you.

Part of the journey of faith is to reconcile what we say we believe (the intellectual bit) with how we live our lives (the existential bit). I recognize lapses in my faith when I forget the story, and especially when I let other competing narratives tell me who I am or how the world works. The work of faith is to come back to God’s story and let it interpret me all over again. And yes, this looks like so many of the disciplines we take for granted because they’ve been sold to us as tasks on a behavior list, but in the right mindset they are life-saving: reading the scriptures, praying and meditating, sharing stories with other believers, and so on. And, most importantly, I have to be patient with myself and let myself receive grace in moments of doubt or struggle. Life is not a test we pass or fail based on mastery, it’s a gradual awakening to the Truth of Who God is.

How do you know if a path you have the opportunity to go down is from God? How can I be sure that I'm following His calling for my career path?

Do you look more like Jesus or less like Jesus if you choose it? Is it an act of love: of God, others, self? Are you actively working to create a world you want to exist, or are you contributing to a world you don’t want to live in?

So often I want the “handwriting in the sky” moment that makes God’s will for my life clear, but at the same moment I have realized through trial and error that so much of christian decision-making stems from the fact that we have been given free will. That’s a big responsibility, but it’s imperative for Love to be the guiding light of our lives. As Saint Augustine says, “Love God and do what you will”, which is to say, as you pursue God in intimate relationship your free will is formed to make decisions that honor Him.

Most of the major decisions I have made in my life have not been clear mandates from the Lord. I am now seeing them more as invitations to a possibility. I’m also learning to be more sensitive to how He speaks to me. I think a lot of the criteria that we put on God’s voice has more to do with the vessel than what the vessel contains, which is the real calling. It’s important we don’t confuse those two. I believe God is less concerned about whether or not we take up a particular job or go to a particular school as He is with the kind of person we’re becoming and what we do with the gifts He’s given us.

To quote from another voice in the Christian household, Thomas Merton:

“My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always, though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.”

How can I be a pastor in my everyday life?

Who are the people in your life that God has gifted you with that are asking for someone to lead them to Him in meaningful ways? They may be family members or friends or co-workers, or perhaps people whose stories you resonate because it’s your story, too. Jesus shepherds us, not because it’s his obligation and duty, but because his heart is broken for us (Matthew 9:36-38). The most important advice I can give is 1) let yourself be motivated by genuine compassion instead of looking for projects, and 2) learn to be a faithful presence to someone by being sensitive to the Spirit rather than prescriptively trying to fix people’s problems for them.

What is your hope for the church to reach out more into this neighborhood and city in sharing the love of Jesus?

This is actually quite pertinent to where we feel the Lord is leading our community next. My hope is that our community becomes a place where people learn who they are in light of God’s story, and then how they are uniquely crafted to tell that story in the world around us. Much of that comes from discerning the different types of people and situations around us we’re each called to love into, so we don’t settle for a programmatic form of evangelism/missions that is insensitive and ineffective. I think a lot of it is our community learning how to ask, “who are the people in our neighborhood/city we are most able to reach with the love of God because of who we are, and how do we pursue that in an authentic way that builds relationship?” There are great practical ways we can serve and share the good news of Jesus with our city, but above all it have to come from a place of honesty.

How has your view of Orlando changed over the last 8 years, for better or for worse?

Honestly, there was a part of me that dreaded moving here. When I was in college in Saint Augustine, I had very limited interactions with Orlando, music venues downtown and theme parks and whatnot, and the only thing that seemed enticing was all the Asian restaurants in the Mills/50 district. The rest didn’t seem to have much going on, especially considering how spoilt I was after six years in Nashville, a bastion of creativity and entrepreneurship.

However, over the course of four-and-a-half years, I have fallen in love with Orlando. I love what it is today, but I also love its potential. There’s so much space, so much raw energy here. I think choosing in, letting the commitment be the filter for how I see the city, has changed how I see it. I am proud to live here now.

Getting our own MLS soccer team helped a lot.

Why do you always pronounce Isaiah wrong?

If the greatest theologian of our time (NT Wright) draws out the “aye” in IsAIah, then so will I. Americans say it wrong.

Coffee or Tea?

Depends on the time of day. I like to mix it up. I’m a big fan of good coffee, but sometimes I have to be true to my Irish roots have have a proper cup of Punjana black tea.